The most respectful barrings I've ever received have been in London

Semyon Dukach and his fellow students at MIT were so successful at card counting in the early 1990s that they took Las Vegas casinos for upwards of million. And Bringing Down the House, the international bestseller written about their daring exploits, is to be launched as a major Hollywood film, produced by Kevin Spacey. After tracking down Dukach to Tokyo - via Boston and Moscow - the leader of the famous card counting gang agreed to be interviewed by InsideEdge. Imagine walking into a casino and knowing you were going to win.

Imagine that the more you played, the more the odds were stacked in your favour and all you had to do was reach across the baize and keep scooping up the chips. For most people, that's when they wake up.

However, a group of uber-bright students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) made the dream a reality with a combination of complex computer simulations, maths systems and good, old-fashioned balls of steel. While most card counters struggle to eke out a living and many lose money, Amphibian Investments - the largest and most successful of the MIT blackjack teams - were dealing in bundles of 0s the size of house bricks and enough chips to fill a bath.

We caught up with Semyon Dukach, founder member and president of The Amphibians, to talk about the good old days and find out if it's still possible to make a living as a card counter. This is what he had to say.

Can you tell us how you got involved with the MIT blackjack team?

Basically I saw a poster and went along to the meeting. I was recruited by another student and it seemed like a blast, flying around the world and playing blackjack for a living. I got my Masters degree and couldn't wait to get out of there and play blackjack for a living. It was a hell of a lot of fun.

What was your gambling experience up until that point?

Before I started playing blackjack? None. I should point out that in our minds, playing blackjack was never gambling. It was a job, and we were very serious and focussed about it. It was applying a mathematical system in order to generate income. It was a lot of hard work.

Who were Amphibian Investments?

The original blackjack teams tried to pay just a little bit of the winnings to the players, and most of the money was going to the investors, which didn't work out very well. A lot of the players kept going and then, after some time, we ended up splitting into two teams: The Reptiles - and The Amphibians, of which I was president. Our group was larger and, I think, more technically savvy, but they were great, great actors. We didn't particularly care if our players got caught and thrown out, because it was easy to find more.

How unusual was it to use your system and leave out of pocket?

At least 40% of the time. Maybe 42%, but instead of the casino having the advantage, we had the advantage.

The amount of money you were betting would put you on the high rollers list. How did the casinos treat your team members?

Before the casinos knew what we were up to, we got everything we wanted. We got first-class air tickets, free rooms with private elevators, tickets to sporting events... they had a private plane to fly us into the Grand Canyon for a sight-seeing tour. Then they realised we were winning more than we should. When that happened, all that stuff went away real fast.

Can you give us a brief overview of how the system worked?

We tried to keep track of the cards that came out of the shoe. We also used other techniques, such as shuffle tracking [the player tries to keep track of a run of high cards in a shoe while the dealing shuffles] which gave us a mathematical advantage over the casino.

When did you stop playing?

In 1998 - and I stopped managing The Amphibians then, too. We were the largest and most successful MIT team ever built. I went on to do other things and forgot about blackjack. But when the book came out, there was a lot of interest in it. I started to hold blackjack seminars, because until then, people thought you had to be a genius to count cards when that's not true. You might need to be a genius to come up with the techniques and the computer simulations, but anyone can learn to be an effective card counter, as long as they work at it.

Let's say I'm an average guy with GCSE maths. How long would it take for you to mould me into a winning blackjack player?

It takes about three months' practice. If you came to my seminars, it would take two days to instil the knowledge, because I wouldn't want to overload you with facts and figures. Then you'd need to go and practice. The people who do really well are the ones who are humble and realise it's going to take a lot of work. They're the ones who go on to form their own teams and make a lot of money.

Can a person still make a long-term living counting cards?

I can't make any long-term guarantees, because everything is always evolving but, at this time, there are people making a lot of money. Right now, you can beat the game, long-term... maybe. Blackjack's only the biggest game in the casino because people know it can be beaten and at some level, casino people have to realise that. They could change the game so that no one could beat it, but then it would die out, like a lot of other card games have already done. I might have 1,000 students now, but if you work out how many people play cards, that's a drop in the bucket.

What do you regard as high stakes?

I'm talking about table maximum. Some casinos will only let you bet ,000 a hand, while others will let you bet ,000 a hand.

What's the most you've ever bet in a single round?

At a couple of Vegas casinos, the maximum bet is ,000 and several times an hour, I would put down three or four hands at ,000 each. If the maximum were ,000, that's what I'd be betting.

In your playing days, how much would you win in a six-month period?

A million bucks. Not all the time, because it's up and down, but I'd say a million dollars was about right.

How much of a fund would you need to cover the fluctuations without going bust?

It depends. The more you have, the more you can bet and the more you'll win. If you want to know how much you need to do this for a living, then it's not much. You'd need ,000 or ,000. I think the least we ever had was 0,000, but the average was about a million and a half.

When did you realise the casinos were on to you?

This is one part that the book didn't capture very well. When we would play, within a few hours, or a couple of days, they would throw you out. Sometimes, very rarely, I lasted longer and I think my record was about nine months. The truth is it could be a few days, or a few hours, or a few minutes. In the book, it seemed as if we played for a long time, made a lot of money and then the casinos caught on and we were finished. But in practice, it wasn't at all like that. There was always a lot of heat; there were always groups of detective agencies watching out and we would come back as a different person, under a different name, with a different disguise.

Can you play anywhere in the world now?

As you get better known and increasingly successful over time, your face gets recognised and you get caught more quickly. Sometimes I can last an hour, but if I came to London I wouldn't even get in, because my passport would have been flagged. Once, on my way to go camping in the Sierra Nevada, I passed through Reno and managed to play for 20 minutes. I played real aggressive and made obvious plays, like splitting 10s, and they didn't know.

How do you like the UK?

The most respectful barrings I've ever received have been in London. Instead of yelling: 'Get the hell out of here,' the guys in London say something like: 'We really respect your game, it's been a pleasure having you here and meeting you, but unfortunately we can't afford to let you play blackjack. But please feel free to try another game.' I love getting barred in London.

We've all heard stories about nefarious goings-on in back rooms with no windows... have you ever suffered any intimidation tactics?

Sure. Sometimes the guys would be jerks and they'd want to push you around. The worst case was in Monte Carlo. It was my own fault, because I didn't know the law there and card counting is illegal. They threw me in a little prison and kept me there all night interrogating me and telling me they could keep me there as long as they wanted. It was a little scary and they threw me out of the country, telling me never to come back.

What advice would you give to an InsideEdge reader who thinks this sounds the life?

It's possible to learn on your own and read books, but it's better to have a group of people to work with. It's important to have the discipline, the rigour and objectivity to be a functioning team. In my experience, 99% of people who read about card counting in a book understand it - and then forget about it. They don't absorb the information. And while a lot of people understand the maths behind it, they don't necessarily have the experience to be able to handle big money. The honest advice I'd have to give somebody is to take one of my seminars, where you'll cover everything (see blackjackscience.com for more details).

What have the casinos done to protect themselves?

Well, they make it harder. They tighten up the game, but then it gets too tight and they lose the regular gamblers. Bear in mind that people think they can win at blackjack - and, if they don't think they can win, they won't play. It's also worth mentioning that most people who are counting cards, or think they are, are losing a lot of money, and the casinos need those people. They don't want to scare them off.

Is it true that one or two mistakes an hour for a card counter can lead to worse results than those of someone who doesn't count cards?

It depends on the kind of mistake. Some mistakes are very costly and you can't afford to make them very often.

Do you miss it?

On occasion. If you'd asked me a year ago, I'd have said no, but now that I'm talking to the media about it and remembering what it was like... Sure, I miss it.